Yesterday there was a firestorm of discussion over Canadian Heritage Minister James Moore's speech (which was promoted by his department in advance) in which he labeled critics of Bill C-32 "radical extremists" and urged confrontation against those who argue for fair copyright, which he said is really an attempt to mislead and oppose the bill. In response there were hundreds of postings on Twitter (including a debate between Moore and Cory Doctorow) along with:
- an NDP release from MP Charlie Angus saying Moore was way out of line
- a must-read CBC article titled Copyright Debate Turns Ugly
- a terrific article by Doctorow providing an author's perspective on "radical extremism" and copyright
- an article by Blayne Haggart that provides some context on the smears
Almost lost amidst the considerable outrage from many people over Moore's comments, was the possibility that there was an attempt to bury the "radical extremist" comment. The initial video posted by event organizers (the Chamber of Commerce's IP Council) did not include a clip of the reference to radical extremists. Sun Media ran a story that included the quote but others seemed to act as if it never happened.
After I blogged about the comment, the Entertainment Software Association of Canada tweeted a reference to "@mpjamesmoore's actual remarks" as if the remarks did not include the reference. The next morning, Barry Sookman blogged on the speech and characterized my post on "radical extremists" as relying upon a second hand source. While that is true – I relied on Sun Media – both the ESA Canada and Sookman were in the room for the speech and surely heard the comment.
More noteworthy is that Moore himself denied making the comment in direct messages with several people on Twitter who expressed concern about it. For example, he sent this to one correspondent
and this to another
By mid-morning yesterday, attendees were not confirming the comment, Moore was denying it, and the event video did not include it. That might have been the end of the story, but IT World Canada reporter Brian Jackson compiled his own video of the event and posted it online. The Jackson video included the reference and made it clear that Moore was not being forthright in his private claims (the event organizer site later added the same video). The lack of candor is rather rich given that Moore's comments tried to paint critics of the bill as misleading the public.
![Red alert -[ HMM ]- by Carbon Arc CC BY-NC-SA 2.0 https://flic.kr/p/FgBkhR](https://www.michaelgeist.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/25774555205_035a814280_k-100x75.jpg)
Hah
Gotta love it when coverups come to light.
Gangs at work
What we see here are gangs fighting for territory.
Interesting reading:
Corporate Entities As Modern-Day Street Gangs
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-post-corporate-entities-modern-day-street-gangs
Nap.
Yes Michael… and the earthquake evacuating the House of Commons was another part of the conspiracy…
This is a really interesting scenario actually. He flat out denied it, and his industry buddies corroborated his story. The only reason this whole thing got blown wide open is because somebody from IT World happened to film their own video. This highlights the extreme importance of open access. If all we had was the official government word, we never would have heard about this. I think this underscores how carefully we need to be monitoring what goes on in this debate.
On the plus side, I really think these attacks, which I would honestly characterize as getting personal at this point, show that we’re actually having a real effect on the debate. They (Moore, “Big Content”, anybody in their corner) would not be going to these lengths if people like Professor Geist were not actually having a noticeable impact on the debate. Keep up the fine work, Professor!
Social Media Fail
It appears there is more to being tech-savvy than buying every new Apple product. Sorry Mr Moore, if you’re going to try to leverage social media, you have to be somewhat genuine – trying to keep track of half-truths and controlling the message only on your terms becomes increasingly difficult. I’m sure the PMO sees this as further justification for keeping ministers on a tight leash.
Moore is a liar. That’s not news.
So is Sookman. Not news either. I’ve seen him speak in person, and you can practically see the slime oozing off him.
twitter
Send him this message:
@mpjamesmoore please include: copyright proprietor may authorize public to remove digital lock to gain access / to use his copyrighted works
With digital locks, attempts like this to cover up slander might actually work.
If the only source of news is a mediated feed that can be replaced any time the source wants, doesn’t “history” become what the winners want it to be?
I don’t normally buy into conspiracy theories, but considering how inflammatory the remark is, I would have expected a fair amount of press about it, something that I’m not seeing – Google news only shows about half a dozen articles (as of the time I’m writing this) that actually address this rather public verbal faux pas.
Wow – Where do they breed these slim balls…..
I know politicians speak out of both sides, but man, when someone sees 10 cameras in the room filming and completely lying about what was said, that is amazing. If he is this honest in public I wonder what back room deals he is making with his controllers in the US. They must be promissing him something big…maybe a big photo op with the G8/G20 on a lease beside the PMO.
Anyone good with photoshop, we could have saved 2 billion….
Mirror that video!
Mirror that video before the evidence is taken down!
We were never at war with Eastasia, either.
Why is Everyone so surprised?
The Tories, never mind that they’re speaking about their version of “balanced” copyright, have never ever put the public interest ahead of their buddies in the corporate sector. It doesn’t matter whether we’re talking about credit cards, regulating the oil patch, or doing the right thing on the environment.
They view consultation as a public relations exercise, to be endured for the sake of being able to claim they consulted, not to listen to what Canadians really want to have happen.
The only hope we have here is for substantial amendments in committee, and pray that the Liberals develop a backbone.
Moore’s new nickname should be “Turd Blossom”, except that would be insulting Karl Rove!
What a fucking lieing weasel caught in the act. These corporate Harper Republican liar-sellouts need to be turfed ASAP.
A broken scale
What a surprise a politician who lies.
I think when a minority government tables a law which would affect all Canadians, all opinion on the matter must be pondered without any kind of ostracism. What a shame from a minister (dishonorable).
In terms of industry vs. consumers digital locks do not represent any balance at all and that is what I call extremist and radical.
Professor Geist,
It is misleading of you to post these messages from Minister Moore without showing what he is responding to. Your blog post makes it look like he is denying using the term “radical extremist” which I don’t think is the case. I think he is correcting the context in which those two words are being interpreted.
James
My experience with Moore
I sent a few tweets yesterday that referenced Moore. My tweets weren’t personal attacks, but showed that I was against the copyright bill in its current form. Later, I went to follow Moore on Twitter, so that I could better follow the debate between him and Cory Doctorow. It was then that I realized I had been blocked by Moore. I guess I am an extremist?
Moore has shown that he is unwilling to listen to anyone’s position if that position is not in accord with his (i.e. the government’s). Blocking people on twitter because they try to constructively add to the debate shows a contempt for the electorate. His comments about “extremists” are in line with this belief. Why should we listen to a politician who refuses to listen to us?
I am not an extremist – I am a citizen with a stake in Canada’s future. Moore should not quell rational debate. Most surely, he should not flame an irrational one.
Everyone needs to email the PM (and others) demanding JM’s immediate firing for this blatant bullshit and then trying to cover it up as well. He is a disgrace and is not fit to serve the Canadian public.
http://pm.gc.ca/eng/contact.asp
James Gannon said:
…
Professor Geist,
It is misleading of you to post these messages from Minister Moore without showing what he is responding to. Your blog post makes it look like he is denying using the term “radical extremist” which I don’t think is the case. I think he is correcting the context in which those two words are being interpreted.
James
Did you even watch the video???? If not do so before opening your mouth.
An old joke made new…
Wasn’t there a song by called “Not now James we’re busy”
“This man’s possessed, he’s restless,
Armed and dangerous, drugged and reckless.”
Captcha: onrushes is
Glenn: Don’t need to, I was there. I didn’t think the “radical extremist” remark was that big of a deal and was more impressed by his comments about Canada’s role as a trading nation and how copyright fits in with that: http://jamesgannon.ca/2010/06/23/moore-canada-always-has-been-and-always-will-be-a-trading-nation/
Welcome to the Con-Form party!
It’s nice to know that if we don’t agree with everything the government says, we’re branded as “radical extremists”… So apparently the vast majority of Canadians are on a level of evil equivalent to Osama Bin Laden.
I think that ‘investment’ in Canada he mentions refers to investment in Lawyers, since the *AA’s will be digitally locking everything in sight, and then suing everybody who buys anything at all.
I’m a constituent in his riding, and he’s blocked me!
http://i45.tinypic.com/e8wnyg.jpg
Nice 🙂
@jamesgannon
it is also misleading on james moore’s part to suggest the will of the canadian people is reflected in the interests of the chamber of commerce, a specifically business oriented entity.
to this day no answer has been provided regarding the express point of paying multiple times for the same media dependant on the device being used at the specific time.
so, to be blunt, is it a good idea or a bad idea to be charged multiple times for the same media?
The Puppet Minister
The corporate puppet minister should know by now that you can’t hide from the internet, even if you do try to block the internet on twitter.
Guess he would favour a 3 strikes regime to shut up the “radical extremists” in order to protect his puppet masters and those who pull his strings.
SOMEONE LOCK ME UP!!!
Seriosuly, artists don’t need copyright, to survive, in the 21st century.
@James Gannon:
What part of “The only people who are opposed to this legislation are really two groups of radical extremists” do you not understand?
I oppose this legislation. I do think it can be improved and made better. But Mr. Moore has made the implication that I’m part of one of two groups of “radical extremists”. To me, that’s very irresponsible for a government minister to say.
Yesterday I ‘invited’ Mr. Moore to read through the carpet bombing thread to get a better understanding of the consumer’s concerns. Well today I am inviting him to tender his resignation. We all suspect politicians are liars and collude behind closed doors, but when it comes to light in such an embarrassing manner it demands the piper be paid.
Mr. Moore any moral authority you had from your position is now mute. Now, the more you try to defend your untenable position the worse it will be for you. There is a time in the ‘battle’ when tide turns against you and you think “Oh, **it”, yesterday was your Custer moment.
@JamesGannon
Mr. Gannon.
I raised some questions regarding your previous post dealing with your perceived necessity of DRM.
http://jamesgannon.ca/2010/06/17/bill-c-32-user-exceptions-and-digital-locks/
I sent you an email and I posted the questions in my own blog here:
http://www.digital-copyright.ca/node/5172
I admit I do have strong opinions on this matter, but I am also eager to better understand the views of this Bill’s proponents. I would be very please, and it would be most enlightening, if you would take the time to answer these two questions, either here or on my blog or via email.
Thank you.
Geist/Angus on Alex Jones?
Dear MG and CA,
If your going to be tagged extremists and involved in a good ole’ cover up conspiracy…go with the flow.
I bet Alex Jones would FREAK OUT if he knew what you guys do aboot ACTA and C-32. It’s got all the right ingredients. Secrecy, media manipulation, lobbyist “certain kind of influence”, locks on citizens ect.
Heck I bet if you asked Jonesy nicely – he could prolly find out and publish the identities of the ACTA Negotiators. I’d be interested to see who the Negotiators actually are. Wouldn’t you?
Pirate Party Of Canada note:
Even the PPCA does not advocate abolishing copyright. They’re debating reduction of term length, expansion of public domain, legal access through sharing, fair use, privacy ect. With Obama wanting an “Internet Kill Switch”, a debate of Canadian Digital Sovereignty is starting too.
HG
– http://www.pirateparty.ca – Where Political Dissent Is Not Viewed As Extremist
The Minister of Heritage should be a lot more open to constructive criticism. In the arts one thrives on constructive criticism to better their works. One would think the Heritage Minister would be more open to and understand criticism than almost any one else in cabinet. I’m glad Minister Clement is taking a much more positive, and calmer approach to criticism on this file.
Maybe we’ll end up with another cabinet shuffle in the coming months. Moore doesn’t seem to be responding towards governments view on this bill to ensure co-operation from all sides, and across the political spectrum needed to pass the bill and welcomed by Clement when the bill was introduced.
@James Gannon
“Don’t need to, I was there. I didn’t think the “radical extremist” remark was that big of a deal”
James, I didn’t find that he was ranting or out of control. It’s more the fact that he used language that implied anyone who disagrees with him and his bill are akin to a terrorist. He has an “I am right and your opinion doesn’t matter attitude”….BAD, BAD, BAD!!!! I think it would be fair to say that a majority of well-informed Canadians would have issues with parts of this bill….be it the anti-circumvention parts or the new retriction on students, education or libraries, etc. So, he’s effectively labeling a majority of the country as terrorists…something the great USA would have the world believe. This further supports the idea that he’s working from an American agenda, for American corporations.
He should be relieved of his position or atleast repremanded for inappropriate behavior. This is NOT appropriate language nor appropriate behaviour for a Canadian politician…especially when he’s supposed to be working FOR the people.
That’s just my opinion.
@jamesgannon
The statement in your blog post that the “WIPO Internet treaties…ban the manufacture and sale of devices that circumvent copyright protections” is incorrect. The WIPO Internet treaties say nothing about device prohibition. The United States did lobby for device prohibition to be included when those treaties were drafted 15 years ago, but it was unsuccessful.
Mr. Moore! Put the Legislation Down and Slowly Back Away…
Enough of this BS. Honestly, how can a politician, so willing to self-censor his own incriminating words, be considered a reasonable candidate for such a media-sensitive bill? He’s beginning to sound like the Iraqi Minister of Information.
@ James Gannon
There or not you obviously missed much of the crap spewed by Moore… and you need to review the video carefully to re-educate yourself about it.
Others have already posted points about this so I won’t repeat them (yet).
James Gannon = new job description = corporate damage control = lost cause
@Danux
“He’s beginning to sound like the Iraqi Minister of Information.”
Baghdad Bob…lol I almost forgot about that guy. The difference with that is Baghdad Bob was being told what to say by Government officials, Moore’s comments do not reflect the Governments view of co-operation needed on this file.
James Moore must resign
It’s bad enough to disrespect Canadian citizens including his own constituents but, if his tweets are the outright lies the appear to be, he has no moral right to retain his post.
So does anyone have a copy of this video? I worry that IT World will remove it and Moore will prevail in censoring himself.
@Latrell
That is exactly what I was getting at yesterday. A quote taken out of context. Put in the context of the answer to the question (based on that he appeared to be addressing an individual rather than the group. We didn’t see the question, and I got the impression that we didn’t see the first part of the response, since the first words presented are “With regards to the legislation), you can see that he is referring to those who oppose copyright the current copyright reform bill because it doesn’t go far enough in the way that they want it to. He specifically mentions those who oppose because they seem to believe that current copyright laws are too strict, who seem not to believe that the artist, author, etc, shouldn’t be allowed to earn a living from their efforts. While he didn’t mention it, based on the answer to the question I would presume that the other group he mentions is the ones that think that the public has too many rights now and should have none.
So, based on what he actually said, I am not sure he would have labelled Dr Geist as a “radical extremist”. The Dr has argued that copyright reform is needed and has made suggestions to balance the bill with a view to the rights of the creators and the consumer.
And frankly, the media (at both ends of the political spectrum) does have the tendency to go to talking heads whose qualifications are suspect or dated to get a sound bite, as he mentioned.
@IamME: Huh? Are you accusing him of treason (“especially when he’s supposed to be working FOR the people.”)? Statements such as that do not help your argument, as you appear to be accusing him of treason since he doesn’t agree with what you believe is the opinions of “a majority of well-informed Canadians”.
Geof said:
…
So does anyone have a copy of this video? I worry that IT World will remove it and Moore will prevail in censoring himself.
Many do.. and thanks to the wonders of the internet this video will never vanish.. much to moores dismay
@james gannon
*why don’t you turn on comments on your blog if your position on this matter is so unassailable?
(*it could be a technical issue as i’m currently commenting from a workplace computer, but all comment links simply link back on the blog posts themselves.)
lol @ captcha – facility outraged
James Moore can be heard saying the following: “The only people who are opposed to this legislation are really two groups of radical extremists.”
http://video.itworldcanada.com?bcpid=7044989001&bctid=101481423001
So, monsieur le ministre, how can you claim to have said nothing of the sort when the words in that exact order can be heard, on the video linked above, coming from your mouth?
mckracken said:
@james gannon
*why don’t you turn on comments on your blog if your position on this matter is so unassailable?
(*it could be a technical issue as i’m currently commenting from a workplace computer, but all comment links simply link back on the blog posts themselves.)
lol @ captcha – facility outraged
Nope.. there seems to be no comment function enabled at all.. ironic how that only seems to happen with those in favor of C-32 and Moore’s stupidity.
alsandor said:
…
James Moore can be heard saying the following: “The only people who are opposed to this legislation are really two groups of radical extremists.”
http://video.itworldcanada.com?bcpid=7044989001&bctid=101481423001
So, monsieur le ministre, how can you claim to have said nothing of the sort when the words in that exact order can be heard, on the video linked above, coming from your mouth?
I can see it now: JM ” Ohh.. err.. well.. that was a side effect of the faulty recording system from an unauthorized camera that blurred my words so it only appeared that I was saying such a thing. If you check with our “official” recording system ( sponsored by the **AA’s )it will show the ‘truth’ of my words of course”
Capcha = the studios
An entreaty to Dr. Geist regarding libel
Dr. Geist,
I think that Moore and his supporters will now try to discredit you using carefully thought-out FUD; they’ll probably try to tie you to “US lobbying groups” like the EFF (they may even place you on a foreign influence watchlist, in response to CSIS’s report) and to “criminal organizations” like the CCER.
For example, James Gannon made the following claim:
“Michael Geist’s summary (which should be taken with a grain of salt on this issue given his close affiliation with video game hacking groups who stand to lose the most from these laws).”
(see http://jamesgannon.ca/2010/06/03/top-5-myths-about-the-new-copyright-bill-and-digital-locks/)
I strongly suggest that you take a page from James Moore’s book and launch a defamation lawsuit against James Gannon and Chris Castle. As you may recall, this action of Harper’s — reportedly suggested and taken charge of by Moore — had the effect of silencing any media speculation on the allegations of bribery, and confined them where they belonged: the court of law.
Moore tried to pull an RCMP
Lie about what did/didn’t happen, and then act shocked that video evidence proves you completely full of it and lying through your teeth.
captcha “errata investigate”.
@Anon-K
“@IamME: Huh? Are you accusing him of treason (“especially when he’s supposed to be working FOR the people.”)? Statements such as that do not help your argument, as you appear to be accusing him of treason since he doesn’t agree with what you believe is the opinions of “a majority of well-informed Canadians”.”
Treason is a strong word and should only be used in light of strong proof.
I’m not accusing him of anything more than inappropriate language and behaviour. Blatently ignoring the concerns of the previously mentioned groups and blanket labeling them as “Radical Extremists” is NOT working for anyone or anything other than his own agenda and is an abuse of his position. Let’s review, those groups include, amoung others, including a plethora of private individuals who voiced concerns…all labeled as radical extremists.
* Liberal MPs
* NDP MPs
* Bloc MPs
* Green Party
* Canadian Consumer Initiative
* Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada
* Canadian Association of University Teachers
* Canadian Federation of Students
* Canadian Library Association
* Business Coalition for Balanced Copyright
* Retail Council of Canada
* Canadian Bookseller Association
* Documentary Organization of Canada
Terrific paper on interoperability and anticircumvention:
http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=perzanowski
tl;dr version: The US DMCA’s “interoperability exception” (§ 1201(f), which Bill C-32 copies nearly word-for-word) is sh*t useless; in fact, it has never once been successfully asserted by a defendant.
So Typical
A slightly modified quote from Mark Twain seems to sum up James Moore best, “Lies, damned lies, and soon – statistics”
…
See here for a press release by Canadian Association of University Teachers
“Copyright Bill a Blow to Educators”
http://www.cautbulletin.ca/
@mckracken, @Glen
“*why don’t you turn on comments on your blog if your position on this matter is so unassailable? ”
I don’t have comments enabled on my website either. If something is really egregious, I can be contacted by e-mail.
People who disagree are free to set up their own website.
Enabling comments requires policing to control things like spam.
Uncorked bottles, spilt milk
It looks like discussion about Mr. Moore’s behavior has jumped from this blog into the mainstream. The CBC article cited above has now reached over 300 comments, and almost all against Mr. Moore’s ‘antics’.
Well, except for this gem, “This isn’t about anything important. Nothing newsworthy here.”
Was There An Attempt to Bury Moore’s “Radical Extremist” Comment?
Yeah…you think! I am Kendal’s wife, and was there when he tried to deny what he had just said to my husband…!! It is there for everyone to see… LOL! You would think he would have handled the accusation in a more – forgive the term…- “politically correct” fashion…So glad that tweeters were paying attention…One more cover up bites the dust…
Was There An Attempt to Bury Moore’s “Radical Extremist” Comment?
I guess I also must be one of those “extremists” since I don’t agree with the bill…LOL! That would make anyone who knows me laugh…
After reading through much of the material posted on james gannon’s blog one thing is quite clear. James Gannon is in the exact same camp as the moron James Moore. Not only stating things that are not true or accurate.. but libelous statements as well.
Anonymous said:
For example, James Gannon made the following claim:
“Michael Geist’s summary (which should be taken with a grain of salt on this issue given his close affiliation with video game hacking groups who stand to lose the most from these laws).”
I think he needs to rename his blog to “James Gannon’s corporate ass kissing corporate and tie hanging between Harper & the **AA’s legs blog.” It then would then give more accuracy to the information provided there.
While James Gannon is definitely a better writer than Moore (as would be expected from a lawyer) he is obviously not out for the good of the common Canadian. Corporate agenda anyone?
@phillipsjk
Enabling comments requires policing to control things like spam.
………
or astroturfing ;p it’s interesting that one of the few places actually discussing the issues is this one.
where oh where has the democracy gone? where oh where could it be?
another classic captcha – treaties alamo
Robyn Jones said:
Was There An Attempt to Bury Moore’s “Radical Extremist” Comment?
I guess I also must be one of those “extremists” since I don’t agree with the bill…LOL! That would make anyone who knows me laugh…
Whats next:
JMoore: But since you are married to Kendal.. my nemesis and he obviously is lying about my statement regardless of film proof there I must conclude you are a TERRORIST plotting the downfall of society as we know it!!!
LOL
Capthca = perfect for Moore caught on tape being a liar:
viewings distinguished
mckracken said:
@phillipsjk
Enabling comments requires policing to control things like spam.
………
or astroturfing ;p it’s interesting that one of the few places actually discussing the issues is this one.
where oh where has the democracy gone? where oh where could it be?
another classic captcha – treaties alamo
It also is a very easy way to ignore and/or censor any and all comments or truths pointed out about the material presented. In Gannon’s case he would never want anyone falling for his blog posts to know what he omits and/or changes. The ability to contradict him would be detrimental to his cause.. The same as Moore blocking ppl on twitter etc since they were not on his side etc.
Generally any such case is usually those that can’t face the facts and/or criticism. Spam is not that hard to control in a blog as well… see the recaptcha system for proof.
I don’t have flash
Can someone mirror the video file so that I may archive it as well as watch it. I can’t run flash.
Typical Mac Users said:
I don’t have flash
Can someone mirror the video file so that I may archive it as well as watch it. I can’t run flash.
here is the MP4 from youtube of it:
http://sharebee.com/7972140b
Filename: James_Moore__Canadian_Copyright_Reform_Visionary_To_P…mp4 Size: 4.52 MB
It will be archived in many other places as well I am sure.
captcha: cyclops time
Typical Mac Users said:
I don’t have flash
Can someone mirror the video file so that I may archive it as well as watch it. I can’t run flash.
And here is just the plain video as provided by MG in mp4 format:
http://sharebee.com/550fb0d2
Filename: James_Moore_s_Attack_on_Fair_Copyright.mp4 Size: 7.94 MB
captcha: the flics
…
Anonymous said:
For example, James Gannon made the following claim:
“Michael Geist’s summary (which should be taken with a grain of salt on this issue given his close affiliation with video game hacking groups who stand to lose the most from these laws).”
This is laughable. As if this, or any other legislation for that matter, will stop game hackers. It’s illegal to hack or crack a game now, how is this legislation going to make it any more illegal or be more of a deterant? If anything this legislation softens the penalties for game crackers…at least those who make no profit on it.
Gaming Industry
The fight againt piracy is only a smoke screen for the gaming industry. I know a guy who used to work for a very large game development company and let me tell you they could care less about piracy. The would never publically admit it, but private meetings, it’s really the second-hand sales they want to kill and DRM will give them the power to do that, which is why they’re pushing so hard for it. DRM doesn’t stop piracy, but it can effectively stop the second-hand trade. Again, the right of first sale taken away.
IamME said:
Gaming Industry
The fight againt piracy is only a smoke screen for the gaming industry. I know a guy who used to work for a very large game development company and let me tell you they could care less about piracy. The would never publically admit it, but private meetings, it’s really the second-hand sales they want to kill and DRM will give them the power to do that, which is why they’re pushing so hard for it. DRM doesn’t stop piracy, but it can effectively stop the second-hand trade. Again, the right of first sale taken away.
That is also true.. though they are trying to do that regardless of C32… greedy bastards!
Gaming Industry
I do somewhat find it odd that other companies can make huge amounts of profit on second hand sales though… buying for 15$ and reselling for 45$ for example…
They basicly commercialized garage sales?
@ …
You can read a bunch more about it here and via google:
http://www.techspot.com/news/38916-ea-to-fend-off-used-game-sales-with-online-pass.html
I for one believe that what EA is trying to do is illegal since it effectively eliminates first sale rights
Government lists of extremists
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I find it pretty scary when government ministers may have lists of people they consider a “radical extremist”. It seems to me that some people here have been labeled and added to some sort of extremest list.
This doesn’t sit well with me, nor should it sit well with you.
@IamME
They don’t get what second hand sales do for them either…
People just won’t buy as much if they can’t make some of their money back by selling after.
They all just have the wrong bloody idea.
The right idea is:
if you build it, they will come.
Stop trying to trap people into paying you more, either with misleading contracts or with legislative changes. You are supposed to be selling stuff. Focus on making quality products and giving people what they want. When this DRM stuff doesn’t save you, it isn’t because the laws aren’t set up enough in your favour… It’s because you suck.
No respect for the strawman
Wasn’t it just a few months ago, before the bill was published, that rumors were circulating that Moore and Clement were having arguments over the scope of the copyright bill?
Didn’t rumors suggest Moore wanted fair dealing, but was overruled?
I posit that Moore still wants fair dealing, but has to work within constraints laid out by his superiors and the entertainment industry. So, how do you get what you want, when you’re superiors are against it? Act on their behalf, argue on their behalf, but be a little overzealous and produce weak arguments.
There’s no better way to turn the public against “you” and your superiors.
I mean really, calling the majority of Canadians extremists (in an era were extremists are often associated with terrorists; whom most hate)? You don’t get into public office by collecting bottlecaps, and I refuse to believe a politician would be that ignorant.
Not to get too far off topic (esp when Moore’s idiocy deserves the attention) but in regards to 1st sale and games…. what EA wants is the equivalent to GM saying that you can’t sell your car you bought from them unless you give them a cut. DRM = extortion in that case.
@crade
Hadn’t thought of that. Good point. (that people buy because they know they can recoup later)
I never sell my games. Did it when I was young, regretted it 😛 Never again ! So that perspective is alien to me 😛
Politics and Money
Wow… Changing sides so soon?
This is new… going against those who got you in…
Captcha: panderer told
LOL
What frustrates me the most is, when his constituents next come together an decide who to send to the Parliament of Canada, this won’t even be on their radar.
Avril Lavigne – Complicated – C-32/ACTA Parody/Satire Remix
Hurf-Durf,
Internet’s like this
Hurf-Durf, Hurf-Durf
Share the way it is
‘Cause Internet’s like this
Hurf-Durf, Hurf-Durf
Share the way it is
Bill C-32 OUT!,
What you tweet raging for?
Play-back, it’s all been copied before
And if you could only let kids share,
You’d be fair
I like the CAN-Net the way we are,
When we’re sharing .zip and .rar
And Artists seeding with me,
Peer to Peer,
But you fear,
Lobbyist wealth,
American ACTA stealth,
Pushing innovation back,
DRM criminal to crack,
You’re an American tool,
C-32 looks cruel.
To me.
Jail me
Why do you have to go and make copyright more Corporate Favorited?
I see the way we’re.
ACTAing like US Lobby serfs imposing Moore copyright already outdated,
Internet’s like this, /queue
And you facebook wall, and blog-trawl,
And you DRM break and you take,
What you paid for and you turn it into,
Interoperability, Promise me I’m never gonna have to encrypt it,
No No No
HG
– http://www.pirateparty.ca – Just say NO to the false flag “War On Canadian Pirates”
Just found this old Satire, they mention the shutting down the internet around 2:40 into the clip.
The Harper Dictatorship – Posted to YouTube December 2008
Warning – Hitler/Harper Parody
I would never resort to calling people I disagree with fascist or ‘radical extremists’, and I’m sure the punk who uploaded that doctored video to YouTube did not get permission from the legitimate rights holder. This is a travesty and not funny at all .. no not at all 0_o
Captcha: the despots
Mr Moore,
When your critics start laughing at you instead of correcting you, it may be time to take your bat and go home.
So they’re really gunning for the garage sales and the second-hand stores like Goodwill, Salvation Army Thrift Shops, Value Village, etc.?
Oh boy.
@Bob
…”Didn’t rumors suggest Moore wanted fair dealing, but was overruled?”
It was the other way around. Clement was overruled. Moore was the one that wanted these measures in this bill. See:
http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5008/125/
@bytowner Using DRM to limit resale means they wouldn’t need to go after Goodwill, Salvation Army Thrift Shops, Value Village. Did you realize that the used game market is worth 100s of millions a year? Game DRM is a direct attack on that market
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/02/05/gamestops-used-game-sales-data-in-beautiful-chart-form/
Games Sales
That’s why I don’t buy games unless I know it’s something that’ll keep my interest (Left 4 Dead 2 for example) or unless I can get it for dirt cheap on Steam. When I finish with the game, if my ONLY option is to put it in a land-fill, then I choose not support those companies who have no respect for the environment. I’ll wait a year and buy it from Steam for $10…if it still interests me.
Someone else should be able to enjoy the game once I’ve finished with it.
You know, it’s crap like this why I find myself resorting more and more to good old-fashion board games. You can’t DRM a board game and you get a physical product for your money. It’s has more replayability and is most often substantially cheaper than a computer game. And you know what, I can resell it, loan it out and even give it away….I know…SHOCKING!!!
DRM and Games
@IamME, Last full priced game I bought was Settlers 7 from Ubisoft. Now I support the indie games from Steam and purchase (sometimes again) license, at least with Steam, you pay for a license locker that you can download the games to as many computers as you want and play them offline (and your kids and spouse can also). With Settlers, each player had to have a licensed copy which means with 3 kids you needed to purchase 3 copies of have you kids share one account (which is against the EULA).
So that is the last support I provide companies with DRM. With this new C-32 digital lock provision will just mean I might be going back to board games also…good paperback book is also very cost effective and they can’t get rid of the 2nd hand market for books…at least not in the next couple years, then I will need my eyes done anyway and my grandkids can read off the new fangled bindle that they had to donate a kidney to “license”….
funny, my captch – Sovereign Halted….. Sounds like our government.
Moore has lost his credibility
First, he slanders people who oppose the government’s terrible copyright reform plan by calling them “radical extremists”. He then states that these extremists have no interest in crafting better copyright laws. When several people express disgust over the comments he made, he denies everything.
This guy has lost all credibility.
Books
“good paperback book is also very cost effective and they can’t get rid of the 2nd hand market for books…at least not in the next couple years”
Well, there is no second-hand market for ebooks. I recently purchased a Kobo when it launched in Canada, and I’ve discovered it’s the same ballgame with that market. When eInk screens become dirt cheap (which is right over the horizon), we might find that treebooks will become exceedingly more expensive and less common.
Loss of Paper Books…Noooo!!!!! The shame
@Milo, yes I can see the publishers raising the prices of paper books because if digital books are the same cost and almost free to distribute, then they will charge a premium to buy paper books. They will then argue it is bad for the environment and get rid of paper books all together. Next will be the book burnings (Ferinheight 451) which will leave the only people that can access knowledge ones in power, which will be a throwback to the days when only the church help the power of teaching. I completely agree with progress but in the last 28 years since I have worked with computers and programmed and developed applications, nothing worries more then limited knowledge to a select few that are “licenced” to receive that knowledge.
I think we should look at the base issue on what copyright is and then start from that point instead of looking at proping up business models or protection of cartels.
Captcha – Of Norseman….wonder if they had books…must go to the library and research.
@cndcitizen
The already do it for paper bills, bank statements, and unofficial transcripts.
If you opt to go paperless, they charge an exorbitant amount for a hard copy. So far, I have no interest in e-billing because my computer is not set up “just so”; so I am not confident in the long-term stability of the information.
If they use PDF documents, DRM can be added to those as well. Imagine an e-bill that prohibits printing unless you pay the $2 Fee! That is not the kind of “copyright innovation” I am interested in.
DRM and PDF
@Phillipsjk – Funny, I just unearthed a document from a previous employee that protected the company docuent with PDF resrictions….I “broke the lock” because it was company property and that we needed to quote it. Since even in a company that would make it illegal….well the guy shouldn’t have been DRM’ing his documents…well maybe, but anyway, you have 100’s of reasons for breaking locks normally or bypassing printing or email regulations (how many turn off email automatic notification responses)
Anyway, I think that the bill as it stands it almost good without the digital locks….with the digital locks it is a submarine.
Catcha – House Brunckner…WTF?
The Channeler
The term “radical extremists” is often used by Fox News pundits.
…
cndcitizen said:
“Loss of Paper Books…Noooo!!!!! The shame
@Milo, yes I can see the publishers raising the prices of paper books because if digital books are the same cost and almost free to distribute, then they will charge a premium to buy paper books.”
The difference is for me, like with music and movies, I won’t pay the same price. If all I’m getting is a file download, then there is pretty much zero cost for raw materials, production, distribution and any other cost related to a hard copy. Of course I expect to pay less. After all a DRM’d digital copy is nothing more than a glorified rental. Why should I be expected to pay anything more than a rental price?
Unbelievable!
These are some grade-A sloppy crooks, even for politicians, pushing this one!
Bottom line, because of incidents like this, I will never be voting conservative again for decades.
I hope no one re-elects this fool.
At this point it’s not about who is right and who is wrong, it’s about the fact that a public official flat out LIED to Canadians. He could have easily played off the remarks as being taken out of context or taken the chance to expand on his remarks, but no, he chose to try and have them stricken from the record and then lied to the Canadian Public about what was said.
I don’t know what’s more shocking, the fact that he would lie about something so relatively trivial, or the fact that a minister in charge of digital information rights management doesn’t seem to understand the fundamental nature of digital information dispersion.
IamME said:
…
cndcitizen said:
“Loss of Paper Books…Noooo!!!!! The shame
@Milo, yes I can see the publishers raising the prices of paper books because if digital books are the same cost and almost free to distribute, then they will charge a premium to buy paper books.”
The difference is for me, like with music and movies, I won’t pay the same price. If all I’m getting is a file download, then there is pretty much zero cost for raw materials, production, distribution and any other cost related to a hard copy. Of course I expect to pay less. After all a DRM’d digital copy is nothing more than a glorified rental. Why should I be expected to pay anything more than a rental price?
The problem is for one person like you whom might refuse to be duped most ppl will be duped. And once again DRM = artificial means to increase profits.
captcha: ruckus about
@Glenn
Yes, most people will be duped. But it won’t last long, once people start losing the data they paid for and have to purchase it again, media companies will slowly become overwhelmed with complaints.
Hard-drives have a substantially shorter life expectancy than physical media and once the data is gone it’s gone. Now, if it becomes illegal to back it up, that will only compound the problem. Most people don’t have the discipline to back up their data anyway. This leads to automated means of protecting data, but still legal under C-32’s full DRM provisions…RAID. These days many people really don’t know what RAID is or what it does for them, not that RAID is infallible either. It’s still a “live” drive and data corruption can happen outside of hardware issues. Compounding the problem, pretty much EVERY person I know who runs a 2 disk RAID drive runs it in a RAID-0 configuration to maximize “single” drive space. This is spanning a single drive over multile hard-disks. This is not smart. If one hard disk fails, the entire drive volumn is lost. It’s much safer to run two separate drives if a lot of storage is the goal. On top of that, for protection, 2 disk arrays should be run in RAID-1 (Mirrored drives), or at the very least JBOD (Just a bunch of disks), anything more than a 2-disk RAID often gets too technical for an average user. It should be noted that RAID is better than nothing, but still not as good as an actual back-up.
If they take away a person’s right to protect their data, then they will evenually have to implement some sort of replacement procedure or media vault…something similar to what Steam does with games you purchase there. Then they might be able to justify slightly higher prices, but still not as much as physical media.
@ IamME
I am an IT pro.. so I am well aware of those aspects and how little the “avg joe” actually understands.
Sad part is if they do not get off their asses and fight C-32 / ACTA they will end up on the short end of the stick. I can backup anything I want here regardless of the “TPM”. I have even helped many others do so as well. That won’t change w/C-32.. Esp since I’ve been doing that for more years than I care to count.
But the general populace will get screwed over and be under the “medias” thumb. Complaints or not that is what the producers of such want.. since it allows them to monetize what is now a consumers rights.
Never mind other BS aspects of both C32 and ACTA.. purposefully written by either the US media giants or those here wanting to kiss their asses such as Moore.
From my pov this is Canada.. the “US” need a good punch in the nose again to butt the hell out of other countries and stop trying to be such a bully.
As for Moore and his complete incomptence… he fails to get his puny intelect around some very basic facts:
#1.. he is an employee of the tax payers.. not the other way around.
#2.. If the population of Canada wants it X way,.,. his job is to do X.
Not whatever the hell he wants (or whomever is lining his pockets)
#3.. While the avg joe does not understand the impact there are those of us who do and will fight this and help to educate the general populace. And we do have other very smart people.. much more eloquent than I am on our side such as MG. (I am far more of a direct and cut the bullshit type)
captcha: useable million
As for pricing… take a look at “online music” currently for a good example… and that is w/o TPM protecion. Right now to go to “itunes” etc for example and buy virtually any “album” complete actually costs more than buying the physical CD… and morons are falling for it.
@Glenn
Like you, I’m also a long-time IT pro. I’m not sure if it was taken this way, I wasn’t dogging you or anything. I was more trying to give a short, high level overview describing the severity of the particular issues surrounding hard-drives and backups, and the lack of the ability to legally back up…if it comes to that.
As for iTunes, I don’t use it, for that very reason. I usually use Napster or PureTracks, which tend to average between $8 and $10 for a full album. Still a little high in my opinion, but not outrageous.
Generation gap?
I used to think (and still do for the most part) that there was a generation barrier between those in power and those who actually use and understand technology. But then I’m 44 and do not fall into that category and what is up with James Moore, he’s 32?
Either he is technologically incompetent or well … let me put it in a limerick ..
“There once was a heritage minister
elected from New Westminster
their concerns he would abide
but misspoke and then he lied
and proved himself most sinister”
@ IamME
No offense taken.. I probably would have said much the same since you cannot assume anyone is an IT pro and if they are not the lingo often will just confuse the avg joe.
As for itunes etc.. I use none of the above… In fact the last music I purchased was a CD straight from the artists. Time before that I handed the “group” in question $5 and downloaded a flac copy instead. ($5 was actually more than 800% than they would get paid by the “label” for the same content).
captcha: floating hypothetical
Crockett said:
“I used to think (and still do for the most part) that there was a generation barrier between those in power and those who actually use and understand technology. But then I’m 44 and do not fall into that category and what is up with James Moore, he’s 32?”
32?!?!?!?! In this case he has no excuse and there’s no pardoning him for blatent, outright ignorance. There is no way he has enough experience that he should be in such a position of power. To me, he looks like he’s in his late 40’s. Perhaps it’s time for him to get out of politics and concentrate on something less stressful.
Correction
The web site I checked was two years out of date, he was born in 1976 and is now 34.
@ Crockett. The sad part is he appears to know even less about technology that my mother does!
Love the limerick
@Crockett – He must have been a jock in high school and didn’t bother studying or learning about anything except cool gagets. He probably didn’t work as from his biography he was elected to parliment when he was 24 which would mean just after finishing his arts degree (non-technical at all) then he went into politics. I think we have the wrong person trying to put things together…A business diploma, arts degree, politician that hasn’t worked in his life…except politics…well one year as a disk jokey….
I wonder if we could find a couple politicians that understand technology to help James craft the bill…or they can listen to the Canadian public that are offering excellent suggestions.
captcha – Recent Cantons
cndcitizen said:
@Crockett – He must have been a jock in high school
@ cndcitizen Are you kidding? Have you taken a look at him on video/pictures? He’ ought to be the before picture for some lame ass weight loss ad.
Perhaps if he spent less time on insanely overpriced lunches / dinners on the tax payers dime and more on technology involved in C-32 he might grow a clue… but I doubt it.
James Moore – The early years
@Gleen
When he was a disk jokey so under
My Comment was corrupted….
anyway short of it was here is a picture of JM when he was
hummm, I guess they don’t let me post URL’s.
@ cndcitizen
strip off the HTML before posting the URL and it will work nicely.
URLs
I haven’t had problems posting URLs…
http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5142/125/
…nevermind…
You’re trying to post and “active” URL. 😀
Check out my new Blog
http://www.FakeJamesMoore.blogspot.com
Crockett said:
Check out my new Blog
http://www.FakeJamesMoore.blogspot.com
One word: PRICELESS!!!
RE: Check out my new Blog
Fun Fun Fun!!!
This is a great captcha because, you know, we’re all evil terroists here…deserving of the wrath of God. Where is that fire and brimstone anyway? Perhaps Moore has it in has back pocket…a secret weapon maybe…LOL
CAPTCHA: critcizing gomorrah
Now updated to current events
http://www.FakeJamesMoore.blogspot.com
@ crockett
hahahaha priceless… and w/more intelligence than Moore is capable of 🙂
I am surprised that Liberal Party and NDP are not using this issue to galvanize support. This is one issue that goes across regular political divide of liberal vs conservative to unite Canadian citizens against failed governing and draconian policies.
@Crockett …Priceless…keep the dialogue going..
You might even get some followers.
Re the URL, just google James Moore pictures and on his website he has some old ones when he was a disk jokey.
Viral Campaign
I emailed my contact list the “notify your MP” and my mom who can just use email and send me junk mail every day along with her 1000 friends just aked what this was about…I told her in lawmans terms what this means for teachers, students and proffessors…guess what, my mom is a retired teacher who still works with the school boards and my father is a professor and private practice….I think they will be distributing the comments.
Never thought the junk mail I got from my mom would be worth something. 🙂
Please do.
@cndcitizen “Crockett …Priceless…keep the dialogue going.. You might even get some followers.”
I’d love to have some followers. And I even promise not to block you 😉
@Crockett – Unfortunatly I am not part of the social media revolution. I am thinking now I am too old to start checking facebook to see what someone has eaten for lunch…I still pick up the phone and see what people are up to.
captcha – floured thought – I wonder if it is grilled or baked…
seeing it all again
I just saw this on CBC – http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/06/25/nb-nbpower-poll-focus-groups-154.html
It became impossible for the government to overcome the public’s cynicism, the documents indicate.
One focus group participant scoffed at the government website set up to promote the deal: “lowerratesnb.ca.”
“Just seeing the address, I wouldn’t believe what’s in there,” the participant said.
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/06/25/nb-nbpower-poll-focus-groups-154.html#ixzz0rvQfJO8j
the above was to show the same strategies that MP’s use to try and get grass root support with missinformation.
@ cndcitizen
Nice info… relevant to show exactly how underhanded they are being.. and such evidence can be used against them thankfully.
Another Blog Update
It seems Mr. Fake James Moore has updated his blog with this post … check out the full blog at http://www.FakeJamesMoore.blogspot.com
PARODY !?
I can’t believe it, someone has posted a parody of me on YouTube. I know my bill says parody is OK but I don’t think against politicians, right? This crazy video has me sitting in a bunker with a bunch of people in suits, it doesn’t even look like me, I don’t have a mustache.
OK, someone told me this is supposed to be Hitler. How dare they associate me with him? What do I have have in common with fascists (I had to look that word up on Wikipedia).
It says, “Fascists seek to organize a nation on corporatist perspectives, values, and systems such as the political system and the economy.”
Now, I’m not doing anything like that, if fact … oh … wait …….. damn.
A behind the scenes look into the workings of the heritage dept.
Crockett said:
A behind the scenes look into the workings of the heritage dept.
Priceless!!
captcha: last fotomat
@ …
post coming soon.. for some dumb reason the system decided my reply needed to be reviewed first ~_~
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